A Chat With Dot Com Presidents
Dan Ciporin, a Five O'Clock Clubber, joined Dealtime.com in January, 1999 after a 9-year stay at MasterCard where he was SVP of the Global Debit Group. His varied career has included running a refugee camp in Thailand and serving as a corporate strategic consultant. Thriving in the new e-commerce setting, he has engineered Dealtime's growth from 9 to 300 employees; it is the largest comparison shopping service on the web. With 5 million unique visitors in July 2000, it ranks the 13th most visited shopping site.
Mark Oldman is the co-founder of Vault.com, a Five O'Clock Club partner and a leading media company for career information. He has authored six books on careers, including The JobVault and the Vault.com Guide to the Top 50 Law Firms as well as the best-selling America's Top Internships and Internship Bible. Vault.com is an outgrowth of Mark's commitment to providing information to consumers; it offers more than 3000 corporate profiles.
Our Associate Editor, David Madison, caught up with these two busy executives long enough to ask them a few questions about job search and career management in the e-commerce world. Their insights and suggestions are summarized in the article that follows.
Not too long ago a dot.com whiz kid appeared
at the Five O'Clock Club for career coaching. Despite an income of well
over a million dollars—and not yet having reached his 30th birthday—he was
concerned that he was "stagnating." As with any other client, we asked him
to think of his career in terms of his Forty-Year Vision. Was his
high-salaried job getting him where he wanted to go?
The new Internet millionaires seem to be going "where no man has gone before," in terms of carving out spectacular careers and making fortunes; their success stories are now the stuff of cover stories and TV profiles. But even seasoned professionals who have their feet on the ground—who have no delusions about overnight wealth—are wondering how they might fit into the e-commerce world. People facing career fatigue and low salary tracks, and who sense that the Internet still offers huge potential, are considering the "digital plunge."
"Even without the deluge of startups we've seen at the outset, the growth opportunities in the Internet world are not going away."
Have they missed the boat?
One of the first questions that we
put to Dan and Mark was about the "opportunity window." Are we nearing the
time when job hunters will begin hearing, "Internet experience only"? Both
agreed that we will see more and more people becoming "Internet veterans,"
who will have an edge in a competitive job market.
"But," Mark
pointed out, "the Internet is still in its infancy. Today's veterans have
only a few years experience. There's not going to be a dramatic slowdown.
Even years from now candidates who want to break in will have things to
offer. It really is still early in the game." Dan noted that "Ùwith every
passing year there are more people with Internet experience—and that
experience will matter. But, even without the deluge of startups we've
seen at the outset, the growth opportunities in the Internet world are not
going away."
As for the situation today—are there great
opportunities now? — Dan's answer was unequivocal, "Yes, absolutely. Our
fundamental philosophy has been very fruitful, and it is shared at all
levels of the organization. Our charge to hiring managers is: âHire the
best athlete—don't focus on the particular event.' Look at the candidate's
business skills and accomplishments. Once you get a new hire up to speed,
the output can more than make up for lack of Internet experience."
"We tell our hiring managers: âHire the best athlete—don't focus on the particular event.' Look at the candidate's business skills and accomplishments."
Come On InÙ.But Is the Water
Fine?
An e-commerce career,
however, may not be for everyone. For an industry in its infancy, there
will a lot of growing pains—and that can mean turbulent environments and
career setbacks for even the most careful planners. "Be careful what you
wish for" is a warning to bear in mind. Dan and Mark were candid about the
requirements and the hazards. Having hired hundreds of people as their
companies have grown, they offered insights about who will thrive in the
dot.com world and who won't—and how to go about making the transition.
Changing on a Dime
One of Mark's favorite interview questions
is "Can you stomach chaos? If you can't, then maybe our industry isn't for
you." He points out that tolerance for change is vital. "There are
shifting business models, the constant need to raise money, and unclear
lines of authority. I call it âmanagement by extemporization,' and you've
got to be comfortable with that." Dan noted that "Ùadaptability is a real
important factor. We have talked to people with corporate backgrounds who
exhibit a sort of âthis is the way it's done' attitude. But rigidity is
absolutely deadly in this business, because it is changing constantly. You
have to be very comfortable with things changing on a dime. In fact,
you've got to thrive on that. This is an important characteristic that's
not always present with people who have a solid business background."
"Can you stomach chaos?
If you can't, then maybe
our industry
isn't for you."
Thinking in âbig-picture' terms is also crucial. Dan points out that a first Internet job may look like a step backward: "Your new Internet job may not give you the broad responsibilities you've been used to. Look at where you want to be in five years; be willing to step back and grow into something."
Demonstrate the bridges
and carryovers—
what has prepared you to
make
a contribution to a dot.com?
Don't Expect the Dot.Com to Figure You Out
It is
imperative that Internet hopefuls show up for interviews well prepared.
Dan advises, "Whatever it is you do, be ready to demonstrate
that you do it well, and how it is transferable to the Internet." Mark
urges candidates to do their homework on positioning, "It can pay to show
how much your experience has been entrepreneurial. You have to demonstrate
the bridges and carryovers—what has prepared you to make a contribution to
a dot.com."
Echoing Five O'Clock Club methodology, Dan
emphasized the importance of sounding like an insider. "I can't
stress that enough. People have asked questions that make it very clear
that they don't have a significant sense of how the Internet works from a
business model standpoint. That's very much a turnoff." "Convey a
belief in your chosen dot.com's business model," Mark added. "I expect
candidates to have thoroughly researched Vault.com. Do they have
sophisticated questions?"
Mark also expects to see the right
motivation. To anyone tempted to make the digital plunge, he advises,
"You've got to evince a passion for working in the Internet—not a passion
for making a buck."
But if the candidate has done the research
and has positioned herself smartly, the dot.coms seem willing to give the
benefit of the doubt—they want and need talent that has been nurtured in
other environments. And if you have been aggressive and proactive in
pursuit of an Internet job, your new bosses will expect that behavior to
continue.
Dan advises the new hire to "Ùexhibit pro-activity, a
go-getter attitude. Look to do more than you were hired to do. Make
suggestions, work to identify new opportunities, take the ball and run
with it. This approach is what works— âthe sky's the limit.'" Mark
stresses that "Ùit's all about fluidity, playing several roles. With
smaller companies especially, there's a lot of room for mobility, there's
far less hierarchy."
Evince a passion for working
in the Internet—not a passion
for
making a buck.
Those Over 50 Need Not Apply?
Is the Internet industry only
for the young? "Youth and stamina play a big role, of course," Dan
acknowledged, "but we value experience." So much so, in fact, that up to
20% of dealtime.com's hiring has been through search firms, which have
helped fill the senior ranks. "Time-honored principles of business
management have not evaporated. The increase of our business has increased
the need for those kinds of skills. The experience level of the âolder'
worker has definitely become more appreciated. The trend is toward more
business experience rather than less."
Mark pointed to one of the
realities on the funding side: "Investors and strategic partners like to
see heavy business minds on board. It adds an aura of credibility." He has
presided over the growth of Vault.com from 4 employees to 110, and when
they hit the 60 mark, it was time to hire what he calls the dream team.
"We needed the strategic savvy that comes only with age and experience."
Vault.com tapped CEOs and presidents of Fortune 500 companies and leading
media firms.
Age or Attitude?
"Suits aren't necessarily bad," proclaims a
current Salomon Smith Barney advertisement aimed at the dress-down
generation, "Ùwhen they're working for you." Younger managers may see the
need to call in older, wiser troops. As Mark put it, "Founders must
recognize their limitations—they have to check their egos at the door and
hire senior managers." But is it a mix that works easily? Ironically, for
âolder' workers the issue may be less, "Will they have me?" but rather,
"Would I really want to work there?" How easy is it to accept a boss the
same age as your daughter? Mark returns to the issue of flexibility:
"You're blazing trails more than you're following pre-established
formulas. You have to be able to work well with the 20-something,
30-something crowd—can you stand the âsilicon valley' informality?" While
age discrimination may be a worry for many contemplating the digital
plunge, the issue of compatibility should be given just as much
thought.
Loyalty Is Still a Virtue
Those who have already made a start
in Internet careers face other challenges. Dot.com failures and the lure
of more money from the latest start-ups can mean that jobs pile up fast on
a rÌsumÌ. For the world in general—with record layoffs in the last
decade—changing jobs a few times has become less of a stigma. But
has job hopping become an accepted pattern in the Internet industry? We
asked Dan and Mark if people who lose Internet jobs can still rebound
fairly quickly.
Mark sees a market still hungry for talent.
"It's still an employees' market. The economy is robust—it's the best
job-seeking market in history and employers are scrambling to increase
retention. Job hopping is not necessarily a negative, but serial job
hopping—making moves every six months—shows a lack of a loyalty, an
unhealthy fixation on finding the bigger and better deal. People need to
demonstrate commitment. I like to see at least a year on the last job or
two, otherwise it's a red flag."
Dan also confirms that people
with good Internet experience are in demand—and some job hopping comes
with the territory. "Dealtime.com has been blessed with low turnover," he
noted, "and we do look askance at a rÌsumÌ with five dot.coms in three
years. We are looking for people who will bear down and do the job—and not
get three to six months' training on our nickel and jump off somewhere
else. We screen out people like that. When we see three or four jobs
lasting only four months each, that's a warning sign for us."
We are looking for people who will bear down and do the job—and not get three to six months' training on our nickel and jump off somewhere else.
And the rules for smart interviewing apply in the Internet world as much as anywhere else. "We are wary of candidates who mention salary too soon," Mark says, "Ùas well as candidates who are overly concerned with perks and benefits. We are turned off by candidates who badmouth former employers." The serial job hopper can't get away with piling up too many excuses. The Internet, above all, is an environment in which news travels fast. "The dot.com world is a small one," Dan notes, "you can find out about someone who has made moves for the wrong reasons."
The authority of the boss has been destabilized: If a company—or even a boss— is having problems, this information is coming out on the message boards.
Impact of the Internet: Expecting More from Candidates
Ù and Employers
To outclass the competition, the Five O'Clock Club has
always encouraged job hunters to be armed with information, and the
Internet revolution has made that possible to an unprecedented degree.
Vault.com is a superb resource, but the "Career and Job-Search
Bibliography" at the back of our first book, Targeting the Job You Want
(3rd edition) includes 17 pages of website addresses to assist the serious
researcher.
Mark points out, however, that the availability of
information actually has been a mixed blessing for hiring managers.
They're facing smarter job hunters, of course, but from the employer's
point of view, it now possible for candidates to know too much.
Vault.com's feature, Electronic Water Cooler, now
gets 150,000 posting a year from employees who want the outside world to
know what it's like at their companies. "It's a matter of exploding
globally what happens around the company water cooler. If a company is
having problems with low compensation, low morale, flip-flopping business
models, inexperienced management or random firings—this kind of
information is coming out on the message boards. The irreversible
floodgates of communication have opened." The results are startling.
"Many Fortune 500 companies have HR officers assigned to watch the Vault
postings," Mark notes. "We're entering an era where the authority of the
boss is destabilized. Employees have more leverage over toxic tyrannical
bosses than ever before. You used to have to âsweat it out,' but now
companies are sending bad bosses to training classes or putting them into
roles that require less interaction."
Hiring managers now expect candidates to be well informed about their
companies and industries;
managers must also assume that job hunters
can't
be easily fooled by corporate propaganda.
These days hiring managers expect candidates to be well informed about their companies and industries; managers must also assume that job hunters can't be easily fooled by corporate propaganda. Company web sites—the electronic equivalent of the glossy Annual Report—can be abundantly supplemented and undermined by other information in circulation. The âinside scoop' may have become common currency. Now as never before, the tools are available for making informed decisions.
How to Get e-Commerce Interviews
As would be expected, both
Dealtime and Vault do a lot of hiring through their web sites. Dan puts it
about 35% for Dealtime; Mark estimates about 50% for his company. Both
turn to headhunters for senior positions, and both also give bonuses for
hires through employee referrals. Dan recently brought on board a
full-time recruiter, who relies on a couple of the traditional ways to
generate interviews, namely networking and direct contact. So job hunters
scouting the e-commerce world are well advised to use a mix of
approaches.
For those who want to get a head start in
identifying the newest e-commerce opportunities, Mark suggests surfing the web
for venture capitalists. Find out who they're giving money to. "Once
the funding happens, they will start hiring."
An Interview with Peter Lund, former president of CBS, Inc.
Feeling at Home in the 'Wild
West'
|
|
Peter A. Lund "It felt very much like the good old days in San
Diego or Minneapolis. I remember those days fondly when I was running
small radio stations with 25 to 50 people." So says Peter Lund about his
move to the helm of Dreamlife.com, after a 35-year career in broadcasting,
which included serving as president of CBS. "It was actually a retro-time
for me. In the early days of radio broadcasting we all felt that there
were no boundaries."
So, far from struggling with
culture shock, Peter has been energized by the Internet environment. "It's
a fascinating world. The people in it are fascinating. To some degree it's
the âwild West.' You have all these people who don't know what they can't
do—they're all willing to try anything. The hell-bent-for-election
attitude that these people have is exciting, interesting and
fun."
The Opportunity Door Remains Wide
Open
While acknowledging the market correction last
April that put a lot of dot.coms out of business, Peter is "very bullish."
"The opportunity door is absolutely not going to close. We know from all
the forecasts—and I don't care which expert you quote—the Internet is
projected to grow by leaps and bounds over the next four years. The flow
of advertising dollars is going to be huge between now and 2004.
That many new dollars mean a lot of companies will
be successful. This is going to be a healthy employment market
in the months and years to come."
The Marriage of Speed and
Perspective
While encouraging people to "jump into the
pool," Peter does have a warning. "There's nothing to fear, but you must
be flexible. You have to be prepared to change. You'd be very
uncomfortable and ultimately not productive if you try to bring all of the
policies, tenants and practices from your previous career. A lot of those
things won't work. You can be useful to young organizations that don't
have experience—but you can't bring all that you did and
were."
He points out that people in the dot.com world "Ùsay with
pride—even as an intimidation—âwe move at Internet speed, at warp speed.'
You need to be prepared to run as fast as they're running. At the same time, part
of what you're expected to bring to the party is
perspective, some sense of why people are running, and where. For
the right people, it's a useful marriage."
Older—and Just as
Wise
And being over 50 need not be a handicap, Peter is
convinced. "If you're flexible and willing to change, there's a place for
you. One of the reasons that it has been a youth industry was that the
over-50 crowd didn't have a handle on the language and tools of the
industry. Not any more. Age will become less of a factor because there
are now people over 50 who are every bit as
conversant with computers and the Internet as younger people—they are just
as employable as someone who is 22."